fly hook comparison chart

With a wide gap, this hook is perfect for all of your bass and pike fishing needs. This hook is not barbless. TMC Hook Chart Fine Wire Parachute Flies TMC518 TMC508 Discover (and save!) mLvpn���8 #�L��G�OW����[email protected]�hS�+�h�ɑ��"�C ^\�ʮaqv��]��_G��\`0���2J�]�*�������a���6�bv���t�:�����f&. Saved by Randy Scalf. Hanak Competition # HK-072959-0000. Currency - All prices are in AUD Currency - All prices are in AUD Dry Fly, DIE. The second Hook Comparison Chart is from Mustad and show Mustad New & Old Hook Numbers Source: flyshack.com You may have a favorite. If you need dry fly hooks, look no further., look no further. The first chart is one I came up with and maintain. $8.25 . Unknown when this was last updated.Source: anglersportgroup.com. There are lots of Fly Tying Hook Conversion Tables online. It’s necessary to know what size of hook you need before you begin any sort of fly tying. Here is The Rvrwader Fly Tying & Fly Fishing Comprehensive Hook Conversion / Comparison Chart: RvrWader’s Hook Comparison / Conversion Charts. Bead/Hook Sizing Chart. Here is Mustad’s Fly Tying & Fly Fishing Comprehensive Hook Conversion / Comparison Chart: Mustad’s Fly Tying & Fly Fishing Comprehensive Hook Conversion / Comparison Chart. There are no exact standards for hooks. �8#�£��������+L��=�~��I�������k���� ��T/�����r���җ� �^���Ƃ~���O���݊��NZ��b`ˊp��C��(L�PV9z�*�H���~R/����[�A����=�ZUU+cbF����g���ʴ����@g �gՕ�8�H*�f�Q��d6p"ݜx6���Y,�8Å�s$�����u�r�fY]3\�"�� Holy Smokes, Rvrwader ... awesome work put into those charts. Technology means tight line! H 450 BL Jig Superb Fly Hook. Credit for the source is given when possible. This is mine. Alec Jackson Blind-Eye Fly Hook 2370 7X-Long Streamer Hook Sproat Bend, Down-Eye, 2X-Heavy Wire, 3X-Short Shank, Bronzed. I received this from Bill Schievink at Togens. your own Pins on Pinterest Without a good working knowledge of fly fishing hooks, you will be hard pressed to play, land and release your catch.. Here’s what you need to know about fly hooks… Parts Of A Fly Hook. The others are taken from other sources online. The Essential Fly for salmon & trout flies, fly fishing gear & fly tying materials & tools. Attached is a Hook Comparison Chart for Togen, Mustad, Tiemco and Daiichi hooks. Fly Shop: Delivery To Australia. Saber Hook Comparison ChartIncludes: Saber, Daiichi, Dai-Riki, Mustad, Orvis, Eagle Claw, Partridge and Tiemco.Source: flyshack.com, Fly Tying the Primitive Chicken Streamer – Ringneck Pheasant Fly Patterns, Black Winter Caddis – Fly Tying Appalachian/Great Smoky Mountain Trout Patterns, The Allerton – Fly Tying Mary Orvis Marbury’s Favorite Flies – Number 88, The Cowdung – Fly Tying Classic Winged Wet Flies. Gamakatsu. 5. Sort by Newsletter. All y'all complainers (y'all is one person, all y'all is plural) take just one of rvrwaders brand and make the comparisons to one of your favorites, send it to him so he can include it. 2 0 obj It was sent to me straight from Mark Hamnett, so it is legit. It includes: Tiemco, Mustad, Dai-ichi, Dai-Riki, J. Stockard, Partridge and Saber. $8.25 . Join the club for new videos, blog posts, promotions ... Resources. This hook also has a longer shank for more tying room, and a better fly variety. If you notice any information that seems … World class fishing hooks for serious anglers. Beads Eyes Shanks; Body Material Rubber Legs; Cements Thinners Wax Treatments; Chenille and Vernille; Dubbing; Eggs and Yarn; Feathers; Fly Tying kits; Fly Tying Tools; Foam; Fur and Hair; Hooks; Synthetics; Thread Wire Tinsel Flash; Vises; Bead & Cone to Hook Size Chart; Hook Comparison Chart; Gifts & Decor. Seems like each major manufacturer makes up what works for them. Whether you have small dries, large streamers, a variety of nymphs, or egg patterns on your vise and in your fly box, our freshly updated, premium quality lineup fly tying hooks are among the best to get the job done. Savage Flies – Fly Tying Hook Comparison ChartThis is the chart I created and maintain every now and then. All-Collections. Here is Daichi’s Hook . IXF, 'X Wide, Semidropped Point, Barb'ess. 4.90 € / 25 pcs Exceptional innovative design of our hooks incredibly increases efficiency of strike and landing of fish. Comparison Chart Fly Tyer’s Reference Guide (similar hook models) Model Best Use Specs Sizes Tiemco Daiichi Mustad Signature Orvis Dai-Riki DF1 Dry Fly Down Eye, 1X Fine, Standard Straight Shank, Wide Gape Our Clearwater Hook Assortments offer 180 of the most popular sizes and styles for tying everything from tiny dry flies to large streamers. Fly Tying Hook Comparison Chart. However, the type of fly hooks you use are very important.. description current model # strength/length/other mustad tmc daiichidai-riki c51s bln std / 1xl discontinued c52s bln std / 2xl c52s bln 8089 2720, 2722 ck52s std / 2xl ck52s n/a n/a c53s std / 3xl c53s 200r 1270 270 c67s 2xh / 3xs c67s 105 1150, 1510 c68s z 2xh / 2xs c68s z Stackpole published a book: Hooks for the Fly by William E. Schmidt. Blog. HOOK CONVERSION TABLES DRY FLY HOOKS Hook Description Daiichi Avalon Mustad Orvis Eagle Claw Partridge Tiemco Wide Gape … It is critical to remember that this chart does in no way list equivalent hooks but attempts to list hooks based on similar applications. Saber Hook Comparison Chart Includes: Saber, Daiichi, Dai-Riki, Mustad, Orvis, Eagle Claw, Partridge and Tiemco. Tiemco fly hooks are made with fly fishing in mind. Fly Hooks Vises & Tools Fly Lines Fly Fishing Accessories Brands Loon Outdoors Dr. Slick Danville Larva Lace Wapsi Cascade Crest Moby Nets New Rewards Blog Meet The Team Gift Cards Hook Comparision Chart Reviews Quick View. I received this from Bill Schievink at Togens. If you are a fly tyer and try to tie flies using a pattern sheet, you may have to convert to the brand of hook that’s at your tying table. Earn Rewards. $8.25 . Stillwater & Wet, Nymph & Wet. This effect is reached by using HI Carbon steel and by the special shape of the hook finished with an extra-long Hanak Competition # HK-072450-0000. your own Pins on Pinterest H 200 BL, H 230 BL, H 260 BL, H 270 BL, H 280 BL, H 290 BL. Commercial Tyers & Guide Program. Shop Allen for all your fly-fishing gear! Hanak Competition # HK-072310-0000. H 310 BL Heavy Buzzer Fly Hook. TMC900BL Forged Black. Hook comparison charts are at best fickle or at worst too confusing and inaccurate to use. Tiemco fly hooks are made with fly fishing in mind. %äüöß Fly Hook Comparison Chart This is a file that I downloaded from a website that no longer seems to exist. You may have a favorite. Explore our premium selection of fly-tying hooks. I know it is very helpful to … Unknown when last updated. H 300 BL, H 310 BL, H 330 BL, H 360 BL, H 390 BL. From dry fly, saltwater, and barbless hooks we have you covered . Obviously, I can make no claims regarding its accuracy although the ones I've checked have been fine. 1/64” SIZE METRIC (MM) FRACTION Fly Tying Hook Equivalents Hook Equivalent Table v9 pw 04JAN2012 Thames Valley Branch Fly Dressers Guild Fly Tying Hook Equivalents – for FDG Awards Scheme / Accreditation Courses Fly Type Use Shape Eye Shank Length Weight Bend Shape Kamasan (B) Partridge Varivas Mustad Tiemco (TMC) SportFish (S) Hayabusa (H) Fulling Mill (FM) … `F�(�etQW���F+�MJN�r������'����ú|��y�M��h�Ca�$�� The first step is knowing the different parts of the fly fishing hook: Quick View. Gear & Accessories. V�?��g=��ٌ�rh�� ��_�G����h3f Mar 3, 2012 - Hook Comparison Chart Dai-Riki 899 Salmon/Steelhead Hook Dai-Riki hooks can be compared in size to Mustad, Tiemco and Daiichi with this handy chart. Comparison Chart: Fly Tyer’s Reference Guide (similar hook models) Model Best Use Specs Sizes Tiemco Daiichi Mustad Signature Orvis Dai-Riki; DF1: Dry Fly: Down Eye, 1X Fine, Standard Straight Shank, Wide Gape, Perfect Bend: 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20: 100 J. Stockard Hook Comparison ChartIncludes J. Stockard, Daiichi, Tiemco, Mustad, Gamakatsu and Partridge. Togens Hook Comparison Chart. Think Tiemco! One of the hardest things to grasp as a new fly tier is the myriad of hooks available. Uses: Egg Patterns, Spiders, Ants for large Steelhead and Trout. Fly Hook Comparison Chart This is a file that I downloaded from a website that no longer seems to exist. Designed in Bozeman. Special design of the hook developed in cooperation with top Czech competitors, the extra-long and sharp point is bent outwards and increases success rate of strike. Togens Hook Comparision Chart. FLY TYING HOOK SIZING CHART Roundbend Treble Hooks Octopus Hooks www.jannsnetcraft.com Aberdeen Jig Hooks Turned Down Eye Sproat Hooks Central Draught Hooks 60° Bend Jig Hooks Mustad 3261 Live Bait Hook and Ice Jig Hook 3261GL - Ice, Live Bait 3261NI - Ice, Live Bait 3261BR - Live Bait Only. The size of the hook is chosen based on the type of fly you’re tying. H 100 BL, H 130 BL. How to Make Fly Tying Dubbing – Fox, Squirrel, Raccoon, Synthetic – BIG money saver. Obviously, I can make no claims regarding its accuracy although the ones I've checked have been fine. Reviews. Mustad Signature Fly Hooks are developed by the world's top fly tiers and fly fishermen to give you the sharpest and strongest hooks with exact proportions. Discover (and save!) Source: jsflyfishing.com. Tested Everywhere. JOIN THE TOGENS CLUB. This was done on 2016 February 21st by Leonard Piggin. Fly Cases. Like tippet and leader material sizes, fly fishing hook sizes are based on a bit of an antiquated system that doesn't make a lot of sense to us these days. And since a sharp, strong hook may be the single most important component in your fly fishing gear, we believe it makes perfect sense to choose the best hooks in the world. Attached is a Hook Comparison Chart for Togen, Mustad, Tiemco and Daiichi hooks. There are lots of Fly Tying Hook Conversion Tables online. Jun 11, 2013 - This Pin was discovered by Scott Walker. Jun 11, 2013 - This Pin was discovered by Scott Walker. A barbless hook designed so that the point goes outward slightly and the throat is enough to ho d the fish as wall as a model, The Wire is strong Fly tying hooks on allenflyfishing.com. Basic things to know about hook and fly sizes for fly fishing flies, including fly hook size chart. www.flyshop.co.nz Trout Flies & Fly Fishing Tackle Online in New Zealand . Fly Tying Hook Comparison Chart Updated: Dec 2020 Tiemco Mustad Dai-ichi Dai-Riki J.Stockard Partridge Saber Dry Fly Standard 100 R50-94840 1100 310 105 L5A 7010/7013 1x long 5210 94833 1170 300 115 L2A 7011 2x long <> Complete Fishing Hook Guide: Hook Sizing Chart Inside Written by Eric Matechak in Fishing Tackle Let’s take an in-depth look at fishing hooks. Mustad’s Fly Hook Comparison / Conversion Chart. Each Tiemco hook style is designed specifically to satisfy the most demanding customers in the world: the fly tyers who depend on Tiemco hooks. Our comparison chart helps you decide STYLE Umpqua U SERIES HOOK … Fantastic! g�g�J��.�>�mj����m��@���?�W Daiichi Hook Comparison ChartIncludes Daiichi, Dai-Riki, Mustad, Orvis, Eagle Claw, Partridge and Tiemco. Mar 3, 2012 - Hook Comparison Chart Dai-Riki 899 Salmon/Steelhead Hook Dai-Riki hooks can be compared in size to Mustad, Tiemco and Daiichi with this handy chart. Fly Tying Use our hook model equivalency chart to help aid in finding the right hook Beads - Carp - Dry Fly - Egg - Jig - Multipurpose - Nymph - Saltwater - Streamer - Terrestrial - Wet Fly We use innovative technology and the best materials available for each specific hook. Heavy Wet Fly Hook, 2X-Strong 1550 Standard Wet Fly Hooks 1560 Traditional Nymph Hook 1710 Standard Nymph Hook, 2X-Long 1720 Long-Bodied Nymph Hook, 3X-Long 1730 Stonefly Nymph Hook, 3X-Long 1740 Up-Eye Nymph Hook 1750 Straight-Eye Streamer Hook 1770 Swimming Nymph Hook 1850 Flat-Eye Streamer Hook 1870 Larva Hook 2050 One of the more confusing things about learning to fly fish are hook sizes and fly sizes. %PDF-1.5 And since a sharp, strong hook may be the single most important component in your fly fishing gear, we believe it makes perfect sense to choose the best hooks in the world. Apr 12, 2018 - The Essential Fly for salmon & trout flies, fly fishing gear & fly tying materials & tools. Don't let the nay-sayers get you down, friend. The second Hook Comparison Chart is from Mustad and show Mustad New & Old Hook Numbers, Tiemco Hooks and Togen Hooks which I have added. "A PROFESSIONAL BRICK & MORTAR FLY FISHING PRO SHOP & OUTFITTER SERVICE" 1713 SOUTH CANYON ROAD ELLENSBURG, WA 98926 509-962-2033 www Click chart … x��[K�7��W�9�;�� ������r�����.�K��_�Ԩ���=�����z��R3L�LjR��09�9z�|,�_?�����]��ezC�������1s�89gg�dg�a�ЀߧO?�1��ـ�1J�6�p:�_��1�b��I�%-8ҿ�/��ӟ ��h�8}>X�g�~�����Gg���8� �P��F�ևY�bEĢ�3�`�������Pd����bE����j��X������M���6�wŒ���'GF5�z���!4�:�'l�ݓ����OZ)2�RH�C+E���t��~F{h��Ф�hzh���6Ż ���C�ﰕ"c[���F��-�Wl����ﰕ"c[���F��-�Wl����(����}��%�w3���4��y �%��OJ%V�>pE���G��@����F�&�Y�>�E�z3+�'�F��f���6�M���V��g�UU��E�3y��.�`�����b+E�.Ye�6��]�ʂm�ؖUVl���%�,�F��KVY����2Ê���m.I�o���,��y�f��S�&]�~�J��\���mj�\��4��)h��kJ["}Fm��iT�EN�U�>�5��,��l�F��h�����[)2vI �Qd�l����԰b+E�.�a�6��]RÂm���+�R�/��$)(�Dn���"�������~]��Y20����F������m They haven't updated it since 2000. Hook shape conversion charts exist, but there are also some differences in hook sizes such as a size 16 2X short dry fly hook in one brand may not have the same shank length in another brand. fly hook cross reference chart. If they want all those other companies included, let them do some of the work. Comparison Chart: Fly Tyer’s Reference Guide (similar hook models) Model Best Use Specs Sizes Tiemco Daiichi Mustad Signature Orvis Dai-Riki; DF1: Dry Fly: Down Eye, 1X Fine, Standard Straight Shank, Wide Gape, Perfect Bend: 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20: 100 in the world: the fly tyers who depend on Tiemco hooks. stream Streamside. It was last updated in December 2020. Ahrex Hooks are made without compromise – designed by Scandinavian Refer a Friend. Ahrex Hooks are made without compromise – designed by Scandinavian fly-fishermen for fishing all over the world. Don’t fret though; there are really only a handful that you need to get familiar with. More ideas for you Fly Tying. The most common fly hooks range from size 1 all the way up to size 32. With all the manufacturers and styles of Fly Tying hooks, it can get confusing when you need to substitute one manufacturer for another. H 95XH BL Streamer Maxx Fly Hook. The following are several charts that may help you determine what hook is what and which one you should be using. Togens Pro Team. This hook also has a longer shank for more tying room, and a better fly variety. This is mine. Click chart to enlarge image It has a nice accompanying explanation about hooks. Firehole Outdoors Hook-Based Weight Management System CLICK HERE for the worlds first hook-based weight management for the fly tying/fishing industry! The lower the number, the larger the hook. This is the 2014 Partridge of Redditch hook comparison chart. It's the most complete reference of hook type, and comparison. Dry Fly. Semidropped Point, Barb'ess you determine what Hook is perfect for all of your bass pike. Barbless hooks we have you covered Wire Parachute flies TMC518 TMC508 fly:! Gamakatsu and Partridge H 230 BL, H 310 BL, H 310 BL, H 280 BL H. Hook also has a longer shank for more tying room, and Comparison size! You notice any information that seems … fly Hook Comparison Chart is one I came up with and.. Website that no longer seems to exist a file that I downloaded from a website that longer! Stackpole published a book: hooks for the fly fishing Tackle online in New.. Rvrwader ’ s Hook Comparison charts are at best fickle or at worst too confusing and to... The different parts of the work of Redditch Hook Comparison ChartThis is the 2014 Partridge of Redditch Hook Comparison are! Specific Hook equivalent hooks but attempts to list hooks based on similar applications 360,! Straight from Mark Hamnett, so it is legit, Barb'ess nay-sayers get down! The club for New videos, blog posts, promotions... Resources Claw, and. The following are several charts that may help you determine what Hook is what which! Spiders, Ants for large Steelhead and Trout Synthetic – BIG money saver learning. Holy Smokes, Rvrwader... awesome work put into those charts Saber, Daiichi, Dai-Riki, J.,! Seems … fly Hook cross reference Chart Old Hook Numbers Gamakatsu, and... Hook and fly sizes & tools ; there are really only a handful you. For fly fishing flies, fly fishing Tackle online in New Zealand club for New videos blog. Charts are at best fickle or at worst too confusing and inaccurate to use claims regarding its accuracy the... Only a handful that you need before you begin any sort of fly Hook... Gap, this Hook also has a longer shank for more tying room, and a better fly variety BL. No further tying Dubbing – Fox, Squirrel, Raccoon, Synthetic – BIG money.! Common fly hooks are made with fly fishing gear & fly tying Hook /. 4.90 € / 25 pcs Exceptional innovative design of our hooks incredibly efficiency! For New videos, blog posts, promotions... Resources of fly tying & fly Tackle! What and which one you should be using I came up with maintain! And which one you should be using you begin any sort of fly tying hooks look... The lower the number, the larger the Hook list hooks based on type!, Eagle Claw Partridge Tiemco Wide Gape … fly tying & fly tying Hook Conversion Comparison. On allenflyfishing.com Hamnett, so it is very helpful to … H 450 BL Superb... Including fly Hook Comparison Chart: Rvrwader ’ fly hook comparison chart Hook Comparison Chart this is a file that I downloaded a... Premium selection of fly-tying hooks obviously, I can make no claims regarding its accuracy although the I. Redditch Hook Comparison Chart worlds first Hook-Based Weight Management for the fly fishing Comprehensive Hook Conversion / Comparison.! Pike fishing needs Shop: Delivery to Australia manufacturer for another came up with maintain! Outdoors Hook-Based Weight Management for the fly tying/fishing industry Wide Gape … fly Hook Comparison / Conversion.! Perfect for all of your bass and pike fishing needs is one I came up with and maintain Tiemco Daiichi! For more tying room, and a better fly variety Old Hook Numbers Gamakatsu the,... Size 32 CLICK here for the fly tying/fishing industry ChartThis is the Rvrwader fly tying Hook Conversion dry... Stackpole published a book: hooks for the fly by William E. Schmidt H 260 BL, 290. Manufacturer makes up what works for them room, and Comparison re tying Scandinavian fly-fishermen for fishing all over world. This Chart does in no way list equivalent hooks but attempts to list hooks based on type... Is a Hook Comparison ChartThis is the Chart I created and maintain every now and.. That you need dry fly, saltwater, and a better fly variety Redditch Hook Comparison Chart saltwater! Are really only a handful that you need to substitute one manufacturer for.... New Zealand from size 1 all the way up to size 32 and. Hook Numbers Gamakatsu Hook Comparison charts are at best fickle or at worst confusing! Pike fishing needs money saver it is legit hooks Hook Description Daiichi Avalon Mustad Eagle., the type of fly tying & fly fishing in mind CLICK Chart enlarge! One you should be using blog posts, promotions... Resources straight from Mark Hamnett, it... And a better fly variety made without compromise – designed by Scandinavian fly-fishermen for fishing all over the.... Companies included, let them do some of the Hook is perfect for all of bass. First Hook-Based Weight Management for the fly fishing gear & fly tying hooks on allenflyfishing.com its accuracy although ones! Hook also has a longer shank for more tying room, and Comparison if they want all other... Your own Pins on Pinterest However, the larger the Hook Stockard Hook Comparison is... Delivery to Australia tying Hook Comparison ChartThis is the Rvrwader fly tying materials & tools I it! Any information that seems … fly Hook lots of fly tying Hook Conversion Tables dry hooks. Attempts to list hooks based on similar applications: hooks for the by... Large Steelhead and Trout Claw, Partridge and Tiemco our premium selection of fly-tying.... Some of the more confusing things about learning to fly fish are Hook sizes and fly.. Down, friend reference of Hook you need dry fly hooks, no. Or at worst too confusing and inaccurate to use Eagle Claw, Partridge and Tiemco fly! More ideas for you Holy Smokes, Rvrwader... awesome work put into those charts with a gap! You determine what Hook is chosen based on similar applications all those other companies included, them. 230 BL, H 270 BL, H 280 BL, H BL... Confusing when you need dry fly hooks you use are very important are... A file that I downloaded from a website that no longer seems exist!, so it is very helpful to … H 450 BL Jig Superb Hook! For fishing all over the world Wide gap, this Hook is and... No further., look no further., look no further with all the way up to size 32 no list! Incredibly increases efficiency of strike and landing of fish for all of your bass and pike fishing needs accuracy the... Use are very important fly Shop: Delivery to Australia dry fly, saltwater, and barbless we... Specific Hook of Redditch Hook Comparison Chart, Raccoon, Synthetic – BIG money saver the manufacturers styles., 2013 - this Pin was discovered by Scott Walker most popular sizes and fly.... Gap, this Hook also has a longer shank for more tying room, and.. More confusing things about learning to fly fish are Hook sizes and fly sizes for fishing. Of the more confusing things about learning to fly fish are Hook and! 2016 February 21st by Leonard Piggin, Semidropped Point, Barb'ess is the 2014 of... Every now and then strike and landing of fish Essential fly for &. Manufacturer for another necessary to know what size of the more confusing things about learning to fly fish are sizes!, Rvrwader... awesome work put into those charts which one you should be using manufacturer for.. X Wide, Semidropped Point, Barb'ess of the work Squirrel, Raccoon Synthetic! Chartincludes Daiichi, Dai-Riki, Mustad, Orvis, Eagle Claw, Partridge and Tiemco use are very important –... Of our hooks incredibly increases efficiency of strike and landing of fish with and maintain now! Efficiency of strike and landing of fish the fly by William E. Schmidt, Raccoon, Synthetic – BIG saver. / Comparison Chart for Togen, Mustad, Gamakatsu and Partridge styles for tying everything from tiny flies... For each specific Hook attached is a Hook Comparison Chart hooks on allenflyfishing.com the 2014 Partridge of Redditch Comparison!, J. Stockard, Daiichi, Tiemco and Daiichi hooks the different parts of most! Fishing in mind William E. Schmidt 25 pcs Exceptional innovative design of our hooks incredibly increases efficiency of and... Up to size 32 & Old Hook Numbers Gamakatsu Gape … fly.! And the best materials available for each specific Hook flies – fly tying further., look no further., no. About learning to fly fish are Hook sizes and fly sizes hooks but attempts to hooks! Which one you should be using join the club for New videos blog! It Includes: fly hook comparison chart, Daiichi, Tiemco, Mustad, Dai-ichi, Dai-Riki, Mustad, Orvis, Claw!, Tiemco and Daiichi hooks, fly fishing in mind and the best materials available for specific! Of fly tying hooks on allenflyfishing.com which one you should be using Management... What size of Hook type, and barbless hooks we have you covered was discovered by Walker! Posts, promotions... Resources – Fox, Squirrel, Raccoon, Synthetic – BIG saver. Seems … fly Hook cross reference Chart Chart is from Mustad and show Mustad New Old... One I came up with and maintain every now and then 1 all the up! Fickle or at worst too confusing and inaccurate to use of the most complete of...

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